Bintel Interview with Elin Bergman

This is our continued series of interviews with leaders in Sustainability. We had a chance to sit down with Elin Bergman on May 17, 2023 for a wide ranging discussion on her current work and outlook for the future. The transcript has been edited for this format. 

Elin Bergman
"Circular Economy Queen of Sweden"/COO at Cradlenet, Co-founder and managing partner at Nordic Circular Hotspot

Elin Bergman is known for being the Circular Economy Queen of Sweden. She is one of the co-founders of the Nordic Circular Hotspot, and currently serves as the COO and spokesperson of the Swedish circular economy network Cradlenet. For many years she worked as WWF Sweden’s circular economy expert, where she developed the international circular economy network Baltic Stewardship Initiative, to enable the recirculation of nutrients in the Baltic Sea region in the agri-food sector. She has previous experience as Marketing and Communications Manager at the sustainability consultancies Tricorona and Respect in Stockholm.

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Tom Marsh: Hi Elin, thanks for taking the time this morning. We love to talk to people who have been doing this a long time and appreciate you joining us. It is a challenge to start with your background, you're doing so many cool things. Can you talk about that a little bit, how you took on the circular economy mission and what you're doing now?

Elin Bergman: Fantastic. Thank you so much. I can start with what I did in the beginning because I started out in the entertainment industry, which is a bit weird because according to my very, very old childhood friends, I have always been into environmental issues. But I forgot about it for a while when I got my first job in the gaming industry. I'm a gamer, too. I love gaming, but that's entertainment. From gaming, I got headhunted to a publisher Vivendi Universal Games and from there to the movie industry where I started working for 20th Century Fox, which was even more strange.

“I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INTO ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES. BUT I FORGOT ABOUT IT FOR A WHILE WHEN I GOT MY FIRST JOB IN THE GAMING INDUSTRY. I'M A GAMER, TOO.”

The strange thing about working for Fox is because I wrote a thesis when I was in university about evil media conglomerates, and Fox was the most evil of all, but then I got this big fancy job, and I couldn't say no. So that was like a big test of my character in some way, but I worked for Fox for a few years and worked very hard. I got to do fantastic things, hang out with Hollywood celebrities in L.A., going to Hollywood all the time where the head office was located. And travelled to meetings in Paris, Berlin, and London and stayed in really fancy hotels.

But I knew when I was doing this, it wasn't good for the environment. I was pushing out horrible consumer goods for kids like Ice Age meals at McDonald's with crappy toys in them. And did Star Wars and X-Men campaigns to get more people to buy stuff connected to the movies, and it didn't really feel well.

“THEN THE AL GORE FILM 'THE INCONVENIENT TRUTH' CAME OUT. SINCE I WAS WORKING IN THE MOVIE INDUSTRY, WE ATTENDED THE PREMIERE AND THERE WERE SCIENTISTS EXPLAINING THE CLIMATE ISSUE. AND I WAS LIKE, ‘OMG WHAT AM I DOING?’”

I thought if I put in the amount of time and effort that I do making money for Rupert Murdoch (CEO of Fox), and instead try to save the world, I could do immense good. So, this is why I changed. I stopped working at 20th Century Fox and started working for a homeless organization in Sweden instead. I tried to get jobs in the environmental and sustainability sector first, but they wouldn't have me because I didn't have the credentials, so I enrolled in university to study environmental issues. After two years, I started working for climate and sustainability consultancies where I worked as a communications and marketing director.

Tom Marsh: That’s a great story, Al Gore must have created many climate warriors with his movie. So, then it became your career?

Elin Bergman: The first big change was going from entertainment into sustainability. From there, finding my passion for circularity wasn't a big leap. I'm also sailor and in 2013 I went to a lecture to hear my sailing idol, Ellen MacArthur, who came to Stockholm, Sweden. I just wanted to see her because she singlehandedly sailed around the world, and she was super cool. I heard her lecture using the boat as a likeness for the planet as she sailed around the world. If she didn't take care of her scarce resources on the boat, which was food, water, and energy at the time, she wouldn’t have made it. We're all in the same boat on this planet and that was for me the best story ever. When she started talking about circular economy, so much resonated with me that I was like, I need to do this. I need to put my life into spreading the word about this. The organization that had invited Ellen MacArthur to speak was Cradlenet, and that’s where I work today.

“I HEARD HER LECTURE USING THE BOAT AS A LIKENESS FOR THE PLANET AS SHE SAILED AROUND THE WORLD. IF SHE DIDN’T TAKE CARE OF HER SCARCE RESOURCES ON THE BOAT, WHICH WAS FOOD, WATER, AND ENERGY AT THE TIME, SHE WOULDN’T HAVE MADE IT.”

So, I bullied myself into a coffee with the Chairman of Cradlenet at the time Jeppe Dyrberg and said, "Hey, what can I do to get involved? I can make you coffee or polish your shoes. Whatever, I want to be involved!" The year after, I got elected to the board doing communications and events. Another year later, I became Chairman and I've been the Chairman or Vice Chairman or COO, running the organization since then. So, that's how I got into circular economy and it kind of snowballed from there.

Tom Marsh: Wow, that's such a great story. My epiphany was the very first Earth Day, but no celebrities. It’s hard for each of us to find our place in this fight and to your point, it's a little bit intimidating, especially if you didn’t get the right university degree.

When I started working with NASA in 2015, people would ask me why it matters going to the moon. My response is like your sailboat response. If you think about what it takes to go to Mars, you must create a miniature planet Earth and send it a gazillion miles. And when you get there, there's nothing. It must be circular, and the people at NASA that are doing this, they're dedicating their lives to trying to figure out how to make miniature Earths.

You're the queen of the circular economy, which is a fascinating title. Who gave you that title exactly?

Elin Bergman: Yeah, it is a funny story. I got it many years ago. I think it was the first podcast I ever did. It was a Swedish politician at the time that made it for the Green Party, Lorentz Tovatt introduced me when they started the interview with: “Here she is - The Circular Economy Queen of Sweden," and I was like, “Oh my God, what a great title.” I decided to start using it after that because it was so great and flattering, but a bit as a joke at first! It stuck when I put it on my LinkedIn profile and now I'm just running with it.

“SO, I PUT IT ON MY LINKEDIN PROFILE AS THE CIRCULAR ECONOMY QUEEN OF SWEDEN. IT WAS MORE LIKE A JOKE, BUT THEN IT STUCK, AND NOW I'M JUST RUNNING WITH IT.”

Tom Marsh: But that's where your marketing background paid off as soon as you heard that, you recognized it was brilliant.

Elin Bergman: So now it's such a big thing that people are like, “Oh, Your Majesty,” when I walk into a room, and I think its opened doors.

Circular Economy is such a no brainer. Everything on earth is interconnected, the planet is naturally circular. There is no waste in nature. We, the people is the thing that’s acting and functioning in a unnatural way. We developed this linear wasteful economy, which is not natural at all. So, it's about how can we get back to a more normal system that works within the planetary boundaries, and the circular economy is a very strong tool to get there to become sustainable.

Circular economy is not the silver bullet that will fix everything, but it is one of the strongest tools available to fix many of them at the same time. If we want to fix the climate crisis, we are mostly just focusing fixing the energy systems to renewable energy, but that only addresses 50% of the carbon emission reductions we need. The rest is in consumption and production, the materials we use which means circular economy. So, it's 50/50, we can't do one or the other we need to change everything fast if our coming generations are going to have a habitable planet in the future.

“IT'S ALL INTERCONNECTED, THE PLANET IS NATURALLY CIRCULAR. THERE IS NO WASTE IN NATURE. WE’RE THE THING THAT'S WEIRD. WE DEVELOPED THIS LINEAR ECONOMY, WHICH IS NOT NATURAL AT ALL.”

Tom Marsh: The perception is that Europe is way ahead of the U.S. in terms of regulations. We've got a lot of young people coming out of the universities that are focused on this, doing lots of things in different ways. Do you see this? Is the real progress coming from any community, or any particular part of the world?

Elin Bergman: I think most progress right now is done in the business sector and that's where it should be done because that's where the most harm is done as well. But I think we can't do it without the government. It's so much easier if we're all going in the same direction. Right now, we have six years to halve the carbon emissions on the planet to go down to zero by 2050, so we need to pull every string, use every tool, do whatever we can, to solve this. Discussion is good to have in some ways, but we need to just get on with it instead of talking about who should do what first. It's not a choice anymore.

We need all of us to run, to make people feel a sense of urgency. If you ask me what I'm seeing right now, I will say that because of COVID and the disrupted value chains, we had that ship get stuck in the Suez Canal and now the Ukraine crisis, the companies are feeling it. They see prices going up. They can't get the components they need. They have to find other ways of doing business than just selling, selling, selling because they know they're going to run out of resources. When they look at the risks in their business models, it makes sense to change to circular business models. They can't continue to do what we have been doing in the last 100 years. We're living in a digital world. It's so much easier to get services. You can share instead of consuming things and not it is starting to make more sense for businesses.

Look at Apple for instance. I mean, it's one of the biggest companies in the world. The sales of their phones are going down as people don't want new hardware. They're comfortable with their old phones and the hardware development is stagnating. So now it's instead about the software, they need to figure out quickly what to do to keep earning money.

Here is where the circular economy is the beautiful thing. It's not about moving back into caves and stop consuming or have boring lives living in caves. It's about living and thriving, but sufficiently without having to own so freaking much stuff. And, sharing. Why does everyone in the U.S. need to own a car? You have no infrastructure in moving between points without having a car, but in the future, you can use whatever transportation method you want. It’s about flexibility. You should have public transportation. Yes, in connection with sharing cars or taking an electric scooter or a bike, whatever is more convenient at the time. And if you want to have some exercise or maybe even walk, maybe unheard of in the U.S., but in Colorado maybe you walk anyway, and that is a future many people would like.

It's about having a lot of options in your life and ownership comes with a lot of annoying stuff you need to take care of, like your car. You need to go to the mechanic, car wash and so on. And what if you crash it? It's going to be very expensive, etc. It's more about, what does the future look like and what are we striving for, and can that future be much better than the future we have today? Yes, it can.

Tom Marsh: Where do the consumers fit into this equation? Aren’t businesses responding to consumers, so we need to focus on demand?

Elin Bergman: We should not focus too much on the consumers, they are way too slow and uninformed. I always say, don't wait for the consumer. There is also a discussion about the consumers not demanding circular or sustainable products. Companies always have to teach the consumers what they should buy. Nobody went around saying I would love a smartphone before the smartphone existed, so Apple had to produce it before the demand and show them. Now everybody wants a smartphone, Apple invented the need. We need to do the same with circular and sustainable products – we need to create the need.

“IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. THE CONSUMER IS WAY TOO SLOW. I ALWAYS SAY DON'T WAIT FOR THE CONSUMER.”

It's just a small percentage of people that are the early adopters that try new things. So, the companies have to go invent and tell the consumers what they should be asking for. So that's why when I worked at WWF Sweden, we developed three consumer guides that were super popular and spread around Europe and the globe, as well. One was a fish guide. This started out in the fisheries because we wanted to inform about overfishing and depleted fish stocks. So, we made the fish guide in Sweden, to show what fish are ok to buy there. We had a traffic sign system if a type of fish was green they were ok to buy, if they were yellow you should be careful and  the red you shouldn't touch because they are going extinct.

WWF got so much media attention with this and did the same consumer guides later for meat and vegetarian protein. But it really wasn’t consumer guides at all, what it did was teach the companies don't buy the red fish stock because you probably will not be able to sell it if it's on the list. You know, the consumers never said that, but the risk of the consumers knowing about this while using the consumer guide, and not buying the fish, was enough for the company to stop buying it. But if an organization could say, this is a consumer guide and this is the risk of what the consumer might boycott, that was enough for the companies to change. So now everybody's using the WWF consumer guides to choose what they buy and not to buy. So, this is where I would say the consumer is doing the best job. They don't have to do anything, but we can tell them that the consumer probably will not like this, and that's the risk for companies to make them not sell unsustainable things.

Tom Marsh: I thought Bill Gates made a compelling argument in his book about it. Just saying that there's a green premium on things and as long as there's consumers, they are going to have to pay more. They're going to resist. And as much as your messaging can help it, it’s not going to overcome that. The goal is to eliminate the green premium, either because you outlaw that, and people can't buy it or the companies innovate to the point where there's no premium price related for it, and people can just do what makes sense to them.

Elin Bergman: I would like to even switch it around and say everything that's not green should be more expensive because it actually is. If you look at the long term, if you count the cost of externalities, it's such a weird thing that sustainable and organic things are more expensive than the non-organic. The other products should be shamed and should be pricier. So, that will make the consumers buy the right things. They shouldn't be able to go into a store and buy the wrong things, basically.

Tom Marsh: Do you spend most of your time driving the communications from the consumers point of view or do you spend more of your time with companies or with government?

Elin Bergman: Much more with companies, the main target group for both organizations I’m working for is the business sector, but we also push policy because it is also important. A lot of knowledge transfer regarding circular economy is still needed. This is why we organise a lot of events all the time. At Cradlenet we have meetings every single Friday called Circular Fridays, where we inform our members what's happening in the circular economy of the world, in the EU, in the Nordics and in Sweden. So, they know they don't have to do all that work by themselves. They're up to date all the time, and we also invite lecturers such as scientist, experts, it could be a company or the members themselves, to tell us about how they work with circular economy or how to measure circular economy. We have now made 71 Circular Fridays since we started, and we record every single one. It's a big knowledge library we have developed and on top of that we do lots and lots of other events, as well. We have membership meetings, we do expositions, we do conferences, we do summits. We do a lot of things to get the word out about the benefits of circular economy.

The other part is working with the companies that we have as members and partners, helping them switch into circular business models. But they can usually only get so far because regulation is hindering them. This is also why we work trying to change policy.

Policy takes a long while to change, and the policymakers are not good or ambitious. They don't know anything about circular economy. We have to teach them as well and we have to push, push, push, remind, remind until they are actually changing the hindering regulation. And it's also so much stronger if we do that together with companies. So, that's why I love the power of networks. Because it's so much stronger.

Tom Marsh: Is there an equivalent to your Circular Fridays here in the U.S.?

Elin Bergman: Not that I know of. We actually get requests when we're out speaking on LinkedIn and other places. When are you going to open a Cradlenet in the United States or are you going to open a Cradlenet Spain or Cradlenet U.K.? We should probably make a franchise or something!

Tom Marsh: Communication is one of four pillars in our platform along with traceability, research, and compliance. Even the corporate people in sustainability are constantly having to sort of justify their existence, even within their own companies, even when the CEO supports them. A lot of people in the supply chains are not incentivized to work with the sustainability teams. So, they have to constantly communicate progress and facilitate the knowledge transfer as innovation takes hold.

We need to get it going, but once some guy and some garage somewhere comes up with something innovative, there's a lot of friction in the system for him to get the word out or to build a company that can actually deliver on that innovation. And there's people all over the world that don't even know it exists. We need to accelerate that dramatically because of the deadlines that we're under.

Elin Bergman: I think the good thing in Europe that I mentioned or am noticing, it's especially in Sweden, is that more and more of sustainability managers and similar are ending up in the management team because now it's critical. I think in Europe it's because we have enormously strong EU regulations coming out right now that make reporting on circular economy as mandatory as reporting on financials.  So now they need to have those people much higher up because they need to report on climate, marine and water resources, pollution, and circular economy, and they don't even know how to start reporting on this. A lot of companies are panicking because now they have to quickly learn about their value chains and get their facts in order, which is amazing. I love the European Union right now!

“IN SWEDEN MORE AND MORE SUSTAINABILITY MANAGERS ARE ENDING UP ON THE MANAGEMENT TEAM BECAUSE NOW IT'S CRITICAL.”

Tom Marsh: I think one of the things that's stuck with me in terms of the interviews and conversations we have is that this has come up probably four or five times with people working in the C-Suite or selling into the C-Suite. And companies say that they're up here when you talk to the CSO, but way down here in their actual performance.

Elin Bergman: And now it has to be fact-based, or you get penalised. So, they can't lie anymore. This is also amazing progress.

Tom Marsh: That's why the third part of our platform is compliance. We've been doing this for finance and other places for a long time, but it means that every piece of data that you bring into the system that you're using is linked, stored, and curated to the extent someone comes in and says, you said this in your report, where did that come from? Those links are all preserved, and so you can just click and bring up the source document. Right? Well, we built out a lot in NASA. They don't worry about compliance. They worry about things blowing up and hurting people. So, it's a different motivation.

Is the dissemination of innovation going on all over the world an issue that needs attention?

Elin Bergman: No, but I see that the reason why my organisations are growing so fast is that there is a big need for information. Usually, we do reports on projects where we try to fill the gaps and knowledge. We did a report in 2018 here in Sweden called the Circular Economy Outlook report. We did the same thing again in 2021, where we asked the large cap companies in Sweden, are you working with circular economy, or do you have a strategy? Do you have a road map and targets? And when we asked them in 2018, they didn't even know what circular economy was. They thought it was recycling and when we asked them three years ago, they knew what it was. Only 30% of the answering companies were working with circular economy in 2021, but now they knew what it was. One of the biggest obstacles that we saw in the report was that they didn’t have any knowledge about the subject. This is why we really focus on knowledge transfer in Cradlenet and do these Circular Fridays meetings, they are only for members though. We do a lot of external things for free as well, but we need to find a way to get a salary to be able to do all these things.

So, I think my problem is that I would love to do this all for free and have the Circular Fridays open for everybody. We have to find better base funding, as do all circular enabling networks. I've been running Cradlenet for seven years before without pay, now I do get paid since 3 years back when I started doing this full time.

Tom Marsh: Do you have a repository of all this knowledge that you've accumulated for these Fridays?

Elin Bergman: We record everything, and we have everything on the database that all company members can access.

Tom Marsh: The reason I ask is that we find that on the research side, a lot of people in this field are still doing things sort of traditionally, where they have a folder where they've accumulated all this research. But the velocity of all this information and the volume makes it hard for them to disseminate it and find what they need.

Elin Bergman: We started a digital platform called the Nordic Circular Arena, and that's open and free for everybody. It's financed by Nordic Innovation, so that's where you can find all the reports from the Nordics about circular economy. Everyone can share events and talk to each other in the Arena. It's still very much us still uploading things, so we tried to get everybody to interact, which is hard, but we have that platform. I wanted everybody else to see all the information and reports everyone is sitting on in the Nordics, especially universities and science institutes. Everybody should upload everything they have because so much is going on and nobody knows about it, and it's for science and researchers that can’t meet the people they should meet.

Tom Marsh: I think another element in that respect is money. There's some good research out there but financing some of these innovations is different than traditional approaches. Do you see the financial community being a hindrance or help in this challenge?

Elin Bergman: The financial institutes have been financing the same type of projects over and over again in the Nordics, instead of looking on building onto what others have already done. When it comes to banks and those kinds of institutions, they are hopelessly behind. This is why we started a transition group within the Nordic Circular Hotspot focused on finance, because they don't know how to evaluate or finance circular business models or products.

“WHEN IT COMES TO BANKS AND THOSE KINDS OF INSTITUTIONS, THEY ARE HOPELESSLY BEHIND. THIS IS WHY WE STARTED A TRANSITION GROUP WITHIN THE NORDIC CIRCULAR HOTSPOT FOR FINANCE, BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO EVALUATE OR FINANCE CIRCULAR BUSINESS MODELS.”

They don't know how to measure or evaluate circular business models, because that's a different way of doing business. Before it was like, we're going to produce this product and then we're going to sell it, and then we're going to pay you back the money within three years. But when you have circular business models, the company will for example keep the ownership of the products and will do microtransactions, so they will probably not be able to pay back the bank for 10 or 20 years. It will come back, but it takes a much longer time. So how will the bank know what to do with this? So, we're going to develop guidelines with and for the banks on how to evaluate circular business models. Every time we see a problem like that, we try to pursue it, make guidelines, make sure everybody knows what to do. That's how we work.

Tom Marsh: Elin this has been great. I love the energy and enthusiasm coming from you. I can see why you're the Queen of the Circular Economy!

Elin Bergman: Thanks, I’m very passionate about the subject.

Tom Marsh: Well, there needs to be more queens out there with the same kind of passion, because we've got to move a lot of people and a lot needs to be done very quickly. Are you seeing good energy out of the young people coming out of universities? Do you see any generational differences in your work?

Elin Bergman: Absolutely. We always try to include the younger generation in every event we do because we don't want to talk over their heads. They should be included in everything because they will be the ones affected. I mean, that's a very important part of it. And when we work together, you can see that they are very passionate and also not as prone to listen to the ******** that our generation are communicating. We were like, “I'm so happy I have a job and it's ok, just dump everything in the forest if you tell me to. And if you always did that, who am I to question it?” The current generation instead says, “Hey, where is your corporate responsibility?” They demand ethical behaviour from their employers from the beginning, and I love it. I wish I had that spunk when I was younger, and I would like to think I was pretty fearless, but I could have done better. For us, it was really hard to get a job and I think it's still true in many regions.

“AND WHEN WE WORK TOGETHER, YOU CAN SEE THAT THEY ARE VERY PASSIONATE AND ALSO NOT AS PRONE TO LISTEN TO THE ******** THAT OUR GENERATION HAS.” 

You know, it's really cool what I see. You're in the U.S. and it’s a terrible situation with the economy, people struggling, depressed, etc., but the younger people now won't take this job if it's not good. And I love it.

Tom Marsh: We have a part of our business that focuses on DEI, diversity, equity & inclusion issues, and there's research showing that young people, if they don't think the company they're working for has the right values, they go work somewhere else. Is it similar in Sweden?

Elin Bergman: As I look at the U.S., it's huge. You have all these states which are basically different countries and everyone’s focusing on different things. It’s not the same in Sweden, we have so many political parties and there's no single party that's against circular economy, so even if the parties that are usually against environmental issues can use this to get the left and the right parties to start talking together. The circular economy narrative is also very good for the politicians - it saves resources, the environment, creates new jobs and it's good for business. It has all these fantastic positive things in it.

We should start a Cradlenet U.S. or Nordic Circular Hotspot in every state. Even the oil industry wants to be resource efficient, and so maybe it's a way to move forward. We need to get the consumer to change their behaviour and business will adapt.

“WE SHOULD START A CRADLENET U.S. OR NORDIC CIRCULAR HOTSPOT IN EVERY STATE. EVEN THE OIL INDUSTRY WANTS TO BE RESOURCE EFFICIENT, AND SO MAYBE IT'S A WAY TO MOVE FORWARD.”

Tom Marsh: In Europe, their perception of the U.S. is a bit skewed from the news in the sense that working with companies and being on the ground here, there's a lot more support and a lot more initiative than you would believe if you read the headlines. There is some greenwashing, but there's also a lot of them taking this very seriously. It's just a big project.

Elin Bergman: It's going better now since Biden, right? Because, I mean, it was such a big energy slump during Trump, and now it's coming back to normal again or up to speed, maybe.

Melanie Marsh: Thank you! Not sure how we're going to capture this energy and put it into this interview post, but we will.

Elin Bergman: You know what? I'm a big Stephen King fan and he's always writing about Boulder, Colorado and I have always wanted to see it because of it. Even though it's scary stuff, it always seems very beautiful in the books. Why is he always writing about Boulder? I think I should come and visit you who are located in Boulder!

Tom Marsh: Not sure, but he also writes about Maine. It's not quite as long a trip for you by sailboat. When you get on land, do you have to take an electric train, or do you have other means of transportation?

Elin Bergman: I stopped flying 15 years ago and I just take the train everywhere. In 2016 and 2017, I took my family on our sailboat, and we sailed from Sweden to the Caribbean and back. So, we were very close to the U.S. We were in the Bahamas and Puerto Rico. We almost sailed over.

Tom Marsh: Well, listen, I'll let you go. Thanks again, this has been a wonderful interview.

Elin Bergman: Thank you so much for inviting me and for a great interview!